[closed] Cause I’m not afraid / Of what I don’t know

[notdaredevil]

WHO: Matt Murdock and assorted personages
WHERE: Out in the city
WHEN: early Saturday Feb 15th (before the party)
WHAT: Lots of people know Matt Murdock. Sadly, he doesn't know most of them anymore. (test drive threads cont.)
WARNINGS: Harvey Dent being Harvey Dent?

[Assorted threads inside. Original thread here.]

Comments

FRANK CASTLE

[notdaredevil]

(ooc: continuing from here)

[Well that was a trademark Frank explanation. Short, to the point, and somewhat unsatisfactory. Of course, a lot of the details probably aren't relevant to either of them; how is the province of people like Reed Richards, and wouldn't it be great if he'd show up right about now to get on fixing that.]

How long has this been going on? How long was New York?

[How much of a life did he live that he has no memory of, anymore? Somehow, this is not making him any happier with the situation he's been thrown into. Not. At. All.]

And who messed with my memory, Frank? Why don't I remember any of this?

No, wait-

[Better idea before answers.]

We shouldn't do this here. Is there somewhere we can get off the streets to talk? Even with your injuries.

[Since that does rule out rooftop meetings.]

[fronttowardenemy]

[ Frank lets the questions come, not interrupting in attempt to answer until it's out of his system. He's heard of this, and even been unwittingly a victim of it himself, but he's never had to deal with explaining it firsthand. The responses will be lackluster at best, with so much having remained stubbornly unknown.

He does take the invitation to move; it's a welcome one. He makes a motion with his head in a slight nod forward, as his hands move to the wheels of his chair. ]

Come on.

[ Rooftops may be out, but alleyways can be just as well in a pinch. It takes a few blocks before he deems it a fair distant, and turns down into one dark pathway. ]

Won't have the answers you want. [ He admits outright. ] Most of it is guesswork.

[ Something the Avengers or Fantastic Four would be better at than him. ]

Called it the City, like New York -- close enough, but different. Machine called the Porter pulled in all sorts; some familiar, some not, across dimensions. [ not exactly an uncommon subject where they came from ] Been almost a year for me, but it was more for you. You were there long before me.

Then you just disappeared one day, all of a sudden, like people here tend to do.

Weeks ago, the City fell apart, and now it's all here instead.

[ Even with the highly abridged explanation, it's a lot more words than he likes speaking at once. He and Murdock have enough history that it's easier, but his clipped tone is still present. ]

Not surprised you don't remember. Was told I'd been there before too, but didn't remember. Doubted it and did the research: records had my name.

[notdaredevil]

[From Frank, this is practically a speech; it's almost kind of touching. They might not see eye to eye, and probably never will again even in the most metaphorical of senses, but there are at least some things that don't change. It's natural to fall back into this pattern, maybe. After all, it wouldn't be the first time circumstances forced them to team-up.]

What have you been doing about all of this?

[Because this is not something that Frank Castle would ever take lying down. Not Matt Murdock either, but now he's here without memory or context, so he has to start over from the beginning. Frank at least must have a foundation, by now.]

What did I do about it? There has to be something. It's the government, for god's sake. Or at least they're claiming to be the government. But the buck has to stop somewhere- there has to be something we can get to at the bottom of all this. Do they have a Tony Stark?

[fronttowardenemy]

Misunderstand.

[ He says the word like a fact, not chastising or impatiently. ]

The world before was different; politicians left it alone. [ Matt operated as he always would have, since there wasn't that problem to be had ] The government's changed here.

[ The mention of Stark sours him somewhat. Rogers had been here too -- too briefly. Not worth mentioning to Murdock now, although the memory stirs. This is like repeated history: old problem; new players... somewhat. ] They do.

You know what happens next.

[notdaredevil]

I do.

[It should be comforting, really. They've lived through this once. They can surely do it again. They've seen how bad it can get, how low people who were supposed to be friends- or at least allies, people on the same side- can sink.]

I can handle round two, if that's how it's going to be. Have they started enforcing it yet?

[fronttowardenemy]

Not yet. [ Which is more suspicious to him. They may be waiting for things to calm down, for people to mull it over, before they stop being patient. ] So far everyone's been behaving.

[ Except: ]

Someone got disciplined for traveling without permission. [ Of all the things to make their lack of freedom obvious ] That's just for starters.

[notdaredevil]

[That is not a positive opening salvo at all. At least in their Civil War there had been places to flee, people had been able to walk away from the conflict entirely and refuse to participate. Ben Grimm had, anyway.]

A slap on the wrist, or something more serious?

KATE KANE

[notdaredevil]

(ooc: continuing from here)

[He'll ask when the time seems right to ask. He doesn't know how much she knows to know how much he knows...which makes the whole thing just as convoluted as it sounds. But Matt's a lawyer, and a damn good one. He knows the benefits of picking and choosing the right moment for the right effect.]

Should we? Don't feel like you have to go to too much trouble on my account.

[He's lived through worse, after all.]

I could probably stand to get a little sun. You don't get many opportunities to develop a tan in and out of courtrooms.

[He can say that, because Misty isn't there to laugh her ass off at him, when he just had a weekend in Florida and managed to collect nothing but bruises and freckles.

Also, he's starting to try and feel around for what she does and doesn't know about him already.]

[gevurah]

Hardly.

[ She perks up finally. Forcibly, feigned, but one of the many things Kate learned over the years was to hone her ability to act and so she begins, wary Matt's radar sense will see through it all.

Or maybe that's what she wants.

Curiosity gets the better of her: how long will Matt keep this up? ]

This weather's going to do more than tan you. Lucky us, we've got AC installed in the homes already.

[notdaredevil]

You don't say. And here I always heard Florida couldn't be counted as civilization.

[The years have made him a good actor too, and coming up with banter like this has become...easier than it used to be, in years past. He'll never be Spider-Man, but he can at least keep up a conversation. And make various devil jokes and references, but that's only when he's on the other job.]

Just how long have you been here, Kate? If that's not an awkward question.

[gevurah]

[ It's a bittersweet feeling, pretending they can be on good terms, as if nothing ever occurred between or around them to hurt them and their friendship. They were on good terms again, but then Matt was sent back and Kate, like with Dick, Vic, Carol, even Renee at one point, was left to stew in her own guilt and anger.

She missed Matt, as troubled as she knows he can be. Selfishly, she misses "her" Matt, the one who would remember all the obstacles they faced together.

She doesn't know if this can ever be what it used to, not when she continues to lie. ]

Here? Group of us arrived a month ago.

[ The malt shop is around the corner. They're always offering free drinks to imPorts. ]

[notdaredevil]

[Matt is beginning to think that at some point, if he doesn't confront her about it, she might not actually tell him. And that's fine, maybe, if she doesn't want to he doesn't want to force her into anything. Except if it makes things awkward now, worse down the line. If it doesn't really help at all. There are sometimes ok reasons to lie, but eventually every lie catches up to you, no matter how well-intentioned. Isn't he proof of that? All the madness of his identity?]

And how long before that?

[Objection, your honor, leading the witness. But he's trying to help, trying to make it easier for her to be forthright on her own.]

[gevurah]

[ She wonders if she's painting the wrong picture here, too; not a friend who's been long forgotten, but a heartbroken ex-girlfriend. God, that's a weird idea. ]

Just me?

[ She's been here and in the City a day longer than she's ever wanted to be, but it was nothing compared to the handful of veterans, like Ruka or Felicia. ]

WARNING: THIS THREAD CONTAINS HARVEY DENT

[notdaredevil]

(ooc: continuing from here)

No harm done, Mr. Dent. I'm Matt Murdock. And I'm sorry I'm not who you thought I was.

[Frank's already tipped him off that he has, in fact, been here before, which means that he probably is exactly who this man thought he was. But that isn't information he necessarily needs to share with a stranger. Especially not a stranger whose behavior is this odd and erratic. He's defused the situation a bit for now, but he has no explanation for the aggression in the first place. And the coin- nervous behavior?]

As I understand it, the law doesn't have much to do with what's going on around here. But I think we do the best we can to do right, as much as we can. That we have laws at all, some way to attempt to seek justice, is proof enough of that.

[Things he will always believe in. The law may not always be satisfactory, it may not have a happy ending- but no one every guaranteed justice would be fair. Or that doing the right thing would make everybody happy.]

Nobody ever said it was easy. And certainly nobody ever said some idiot running around in colorful tights was necessarily a champion of justice and the moral right, no matter who's backing them. Which I imagine complicates the matter for some people.

[This is the oddest conversation to be having, and he can't shake the feeling that three layers of meaning down they are having another one entirely, only he's not actually sure what they're talking about.]

WARNING: AND HERE HE IS

[indentcision]

[ With a tilt of his head, Harvey stays silent for a few moments, looking at Matt with wary curiosity. Debating how best to proceed. It was Matt Murdock all right, but he didn't remember Harvey, which meant that maybe he had another chance to do this right. He and Matt didn't have to be enemies. They could be friends.

Should be, he thought. Matt may not have understood to what extent justice should be impartial, but he knew the world was unfair and some people had to take it upon themselves to balance the scales. ]

It does and it doesn't. One choice means the law works with you, the other means you're on your own. Hell of a way to work a system, but you can't blame 'em when that's how they all work. How else can you keep the order separate from the chaos? [ He smiles, encouraged already. ] Maybe they should be complicated.

[notdaredevil]

[Well. This is. Matt suspects they are both fishing, trying to feel each other out. Without a shadow of a doubt he's pretty sure there's some kind of history here, although he can't get a handle on how it would have gone, but similarly, he's also not sure how demanding an outright answer would go over either. Not well, he imagines, with the impression of that aggression fresh in his mind. Which leaves them both talking at cross purposes, doesn't it? Not an ideal way to conduct a conversation. Maybe he needs to switch tactics.]

I don't know about that. Some things are just obvious. Or should be. [Like don't sic the goon squads on your former friends. Don't construct Negative Zone prisons where you throw people without due process of law.] At least a legal system provides some kind of framework, guidelines, standards. You know where you should stand. [Even if strictly speaking vigilantism is totally illegal, but he's well aware of that contradiction, thank you very much. Also, hint hint.]

[indentcision]

Should be and are, would that were always aligned. Too bad.

[ He holds his coin tighter in his fist, clenched tight before the fingers open and the coin rolls smoothly against his thumb -- practiced precision.

Clink. It flips, falling back on his hand with equal expertise. Unscarred side again; he changes tactics just slightly. ]

But you should know, I don't disagree with you. Foundation is what we need, society can't function without a backbone. Falls apart. Which, if I had to guess, is the same kind of logic that's being applied to us.

To more debatable effect.

[notdaredevil]

[At least it's not a terribly uninteresting conversation. Though he is definitely sure they are not actually having an actual conversation so much as he feels like he's expected to play by a script he doesn't know and hasn't ever read. This is so very, very weird.

Maybe he should just stop fishing and start being as forthright as possible at this point. It's not like this is really that much of a debate for him. His feelings haven't changed on this account.]

We have policemen, lawyers, lawmakers for a reason. To uphold that backbone. They're answerable to the people. A private vigilante army sanctioned by the government isn't- it isn't comparable at all. Process of law goes out the window. I can't condone that.

[indentcision]

Just because they are doesn't mean they do. But I'm from a place called Gotham, where it can't get much more corrupt. The system's weighted so law enforcement doing their jobs the right way becomes almost unthinkable to expect.

[ Matt's not wrong to get that sense; Harvey's testing him, feeling out what kind of answers he'll give and what Harvey himself can deduce from those answers. It is Matt, but he's different somehow, and Harvey wants to know as much as he can about in what ways. Why. How. ]

Counter-intuitive, don't you think? Vigilantes and government. Different sides to the same coin, which means they shouldn't be able to stand together.

PETER PARKER

[notdaredevil]

(ooc: continuing from here)

[The fact that he cuts himself off leaves conclusions to be drawn; he'd rather just have an answer. But they can come back to it in a moment. The conversation is already too weird to begin with, there's no way it can get any weirder. Not even if Spider-Man's about to confess he met his own teenage self. Or- what a scary thought- Matt's own teenage self. Nobody needs their adult friends meeting them in their awkward teenage years.

But Matt has pointedly not asked Spider-Man for his name or his identity, not since their conversation when he offered and not before; not even now, when Matt knows he's not here as Spidey.

(The costume has a distinctive smell, of course. Also, he's not hanging upside down from a lamp-post trying to get Matt's attention, and nobody walks around casually on the street in costume.)]

I remember it. [It seems like so long ago when he thinks about it now.] But a lot's happened since then. It's 2013 for me. [Some of it he'd like not to talk about, and he's a little ashamed to think it's convenient that Spidey might not know about Shadowland. What are the odds he wouldn't have told him about that, before?] So you've got some interesting gossip to look forward to. Did I tell you that everyone in New York got spider powers last time I was here? Though I know that's not as exciting as alternate universes and teenagers.

[How much did he even know, last time he was here? This is such a mess. Timelines. This is so not Matt's department, not at all.]

[shutterbugged]

[Peter halts in the middle of the sidewalk.] You're pulling my leg, right? Or you mean "everyone" as in all the heroes, or-- the entire city?

Uh, no, that must have slipped your mind. Or maybe it hadn't happened yet. What the heck did happen? And on a scale from zero to minus ten, how'd ol' JJJ take it? [He shakes his head, resuming his walk. He hopes it wasn't the Spider-God up to tricks again-- that's the last thing he needs to look forward to.

But he can't get ahead of himself. First get Daredevil up to speed, then worry about the other details.]

One thing you did mention was a relapse into your Ninja Kingpin phase. You seemed pretty sheepish about it. [Peter's not trying to be judgmental -- Lord knows he's made more than his fair share of screw-ups -- but a certain wry tone creeps into his voice anyway. Seriously, Matty, don't make a habit out of this.]

[notdaredevil]

Well, he was a spider too, for awhile. So I think you can guess how that might go over.

[A fact he is sure will at least give Spider-Man a momentary burst of amusement, if only for the cruel irony. And if they're talking about Spider-Jonah, they don't have to talk about other things that they're going to have to talk about. Like what happened to Spidey after, and his own...transgressions.]

I- we can add that to the pile of gossip, I guess. [Sheepish is a good word for it; embarrassed, and chagrined, and sometimes he still feels (no matter what Foggy says) like there's no way it could ever not be his fault. He was there. His hands, his orders, his body.] It was- it was an unfortunate accident. Things got out of control. [Demons got involved. Which doesn't make him feel any less responsible. Which doesn't make any of it any better, even though he's tried to move on from it and made peace as best as he can.]

If you don't mind, though, can we talk about that later? Once we've got to the bottom of this as best as we can, I'll tell you everything you need to know.

[Spidey's certainly on the list of people to talk to about stuff like this. It's a short list. But he's there.]

[shutterbugged]

Are you serious? You're serious. Ha! [He should feel bad about his moment of schadenfreude, but he doesn't. Really, really doesn't.] Boy, I bet he had fun with that.

[There's a part of Peter Parker that likes Jonah -- loves him even, because he was family even before they became what amounted to brothers-in-law. He prefers to ignore that part as much as possible.]

If it happens again I'm taking you to megalomania rehab, I swear. But yeah, it can wait.

[Light words for something that's not light by any possible definition of the word. It's not the most responsible reaction, but Peter's happy to see Matt again, wants to hold onto that feeling even if it means putting off the serious talk for later. Besides, it's probably an issue better dealt with by his future self. Who's somewhere in Matt's past. Oy, vey.]

[notdaredevil]

Of course I'm serious. Something like that is too good to make up. [Matt would feel slightly guilty in his place too, but he'd laugh all the same. Can appreciate the humor in it anyway, even if he has no personal beef with Triple J.]

It's not going to happen again. There were extenuating circumstances. [Even though that's true, it still sounds like an excuse, when he says it, which forces him to reiterate with emphasis:] I won't let it happen again.

[Over his dead body. Never going back to that again. He's tried to make a new life, turn over a new leaf, whatever phrase you could use for it. But they'll talk about it. It's stopped hurting him so much, weighing on his conscience. There were so many other things to feel guilty about anymore.]

Tell me who you met.

this isn't even the complete list, dear god

[shutterbugged]

So did he have, like, a Hitler 'stache above his mandibles? I have to know. No, never mind, don't tell me, I don't want to spoil the perfect image in my mind's eye. [Peter, are you seriously holding out your arms and making a picture frame with your fingers?]

Don't sweat it. If you do I really will kick your tuchas. [Only among superheroes would a statement like that qualify as an earnest reassurance.

That said, he's ready to move on to another topic. Even one he sort of wishes he hadn't brought up, since it's giving him the (as kids would say) "feels."]

Well, there were the teenage versions of my daughter and my nephew-- who went by Darkdevil, by the way. Teenage versions of-- [his voice hitches]-- of Gwen Stacy, and Johnny Storm, and MJ too for a little bit. And of me, kind of, except she went by Jessica Drew. Non-teenage versions of Ben Reilly-- Scarlet Spider, that is-- and Mary Jane again. Except in her universe we were married.

[He's quiet a beat too long, then continues a smidge too cheerfully:] Oh, and a good version of Venom, if you can believe that.